Together with members of your group and students in other sections, you’ll be reading Dreams of Trespass over the next several weeks. Although you're not required to take notes while you read, it would be wise to keep track of important events and characters for your own clarification. You are, however, expected to participate regularly and thoughtfully in an online discussion of seven essential questions.
Here's how it works:
Divide your book into two roughly equal halves. You need to have read and blogged about your book by the due dates below.
- There are two kinds of posts in this discussion: comments and responses.
- Post at least SIX comments altogether: at least THREE for the 1st half of reading and at least THREE for the 2nd half.
- You must comment on at least five essential questions over the course of your reading.
- You may comment on only two questions more than once.
- One of your six comments can be a "free response" post.
- Post at at least TEN responses altogether: at least FIVE for the 1st half of reading and at least FIVE for the 2nd half.
- In addition, you will post at least ONE comment and ONE response to the question about Veils, the Portland Stage Company production on March 6. [Note: If you do not attend this production, you will need to post an additional comment and response to the book questions.]
Due dates:
- Post your first three comments and five responses by FRIDAY, FEB. 28.
- Post your final three comments and five responses by TBA (date to be announced in class).
- Post your comment & response about the play by MONDAY, MARCH 10.
- How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
- Where do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
- How are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
- How is the practice of veiling (or restrictions on dress in general) reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles? How do these attitudes affect characters’ lives?
- How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
- How do the characters’ personal stories expand your understanding of the societies in which they live?
- Should there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
Essential Question for Veils: (play by Tom Coash at Portland Stage Company)
The main point of contention between Intisar and Samar in the play is their differing opinions on
the practice of veiling. Which character makes the more compelling argument, in your opinion?
Why?
Assessment: To earn maximum credit, post thoughtful responses that are at least a short paragraph in length—and carefully proofread! Do not misspell characters' or authors’ names! Also, be sure to include specific references to the text (either details or short quotations).
Ahh, I hope I am doing this comment thing properly...
ReplyDeleteI will just post here on the blog page?
- Rose Horowitz
How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
The women of Dreams of Trespass are always trying to find small ways in which they can fight their oppressive environment and enjoy life more. Many times this is tied into entertainment. For example, Chama puts on plays to assert her individuality. The traditional-minded characters, such as Lalla Mani, say that Chama is going against tradition because theatre is not in the Qur’an, and the men often don’t deign to attend her productions. Chama uses her plays to become different people and inspires the other women to think about the wide world outside the Harem. For example, Chama does a play about Asmahan, a singer who goes against tradition to find happiness. As a result the main character is inspired to someday be an actress. Another key way in which characters assert individuality is through storytelling. Aunt Habiba in particular tells great stories of the outside world. This teaches the women that they can have more in life and to learn how to use words carefully (in the case of A Thousand and One Nights). The main character’s mother asserts her individuality by constantly demanding equality (such as when she demands Uncle Ali’s and Father’s salons be the same size), eating lunch at her own hours instead of at the same time as the rest of the Harem community, and encouraging the younger generation to fight back against the rules. Some other ways that characters assert their individuality are by washing the dishes in the river, wearing makeup and smaller veils, and getting a spare key to the radio. These are all against the “rules”, that thus demonstrate rebellion against a repressive society.
I like how many examples you used to support your argument - Chama and her stories about how the harems began and about the rebellious Asmahan, Aunt Habiba and her stories of the outside world, Mother's demands for equality, and the many other small ways that the women in the harems use to express their individuality. If I had one suggestion, it would perhaps be to add something about Yasmina, Fatima's grandmother, who names her fat duck after Lalla Thor to protest Thor's demands for superiority over the rest of Grandfather's wives. Like Fatima's mother, she is very concerned with equality and will forgo the rules in order to express her individuality and let her opinions be heard. Otherwise, nice response!
DeleteOh hey, we are sharing this blog between classes! That's cool!
DeleteThanks for the feedback. That is a really good point, I forgot about Thor (duck version)! Now that I am thinking about Yasmina, it reminds me of Tamou. Do you think Tamou's independence counts as evidence of asserting individuality in an oppressive society? Since she wasn't raised in a Harem environment, it's not as if she is actively trying to challenge the established structure, she is just living like she normally does. I think I am inclined to say that despite being used to a freer lifestyle, Tamou is still asserting her individuality because she hasn't conformed to the Harem lifestyle. Also, she inspires the other women to express themselves (ex. horse races, different ideas of beauty)
I think you're right that Tamou would be another good example - she doesn't conform to the rigid rules or "frontiers" of the harem by, like you said, encouraging horse races and swimming/washing dishes in the river, and having different ideas of what beauty is. I also agree that, despite the fact that she grew up outside a harem, she would still be a good example for this question, because she finds ways to adjust to the rules of the harem and still let her individuality come through.
DeleteI completely forgot about Chama! I could have used her in an earlier post... Oh well. She most certainly asserts her individuality!
DeleteTo Lev, I agree Tamou is also a great and inspiring example of individuality. She inspired all of the co-wives to express their individuality. Such as Mabrouka, the dish saving swimming star and the story-telling Yaya.
Where do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteThe women work hard to find sources of inspiration to add flavor to their dry lives. They often turn to other women who have accomplished great feats for inspiration. Scheherazade is the heroine of One Thousand and One Nights. She is a master of words and uses them to illustrate one story per night for one thousand and one nights so the king will not have her executed. The harem women are inspired by Scheherazade because she is a master of words and they know that to improve their situations in life they must be able to persuade others to let them be free. Another woman that the harem women look up to is Tamou. Tamou is a fighter from the north and her strength causes the women to notice their own inner power to resist convention. Tamou teaches the women that there are many ways to be beautiful. They don’t have to just look pretty and do what their husbands say, they can fight, swear, and ignore tradition, yet still be beautiful. A final strong woman the the harem ladies look to is Asmahan. Asmahan is a princess who was engaged at just seventeen, but disobeyed tradition and ran away to become a singer. She had several scandalous relationships, and died young. Asmahan proves to the women that it is better to have a short, happy life, than a slow, long, traditional one. In conclusion, the harem women look to those who have done what they wish to someday accomplish - overcome tradition.
- Rose Horowitz
I found the One Thousand and One Nights story especially interesting. I loved the idea that words and stories could be more powerful than force or violence. I agree with you in that it was definitely a huge source of inspiration for the characters, especially the younger ones, as it taught them to pay attention to the words and language they use.
DeleteHow does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteOur cultural background in America causes us to view veiling as a restrictive and sexist practice. This is because it is foreign to us. We are used to living in a society where equality is a main pillar. Women are entitled to the same rights as men. If a woman wants to become a professional sports player, then she can. If a woman wants to become a doctor, she has a good head on her shoulders. If a woman wants to become a stay-at-home mom, well, we have progressed so far here in America that we daresay that is far too traditional. Thus, when Americans see a woman forced to act differently than a male, they immediately don’t like it because they have grown up being told that a woman can do what she wants without being restricted by her femininity. Also, in America we grow up hearing that both sexes have equal desires. If anything, we learn that men have a harder time restraining themselves. (for example, the men are expected to propose to the women, make the first move, etc.) (well, before anyone challenges that, it is, of course, changing to be more equal, but I am referring to what’s found in most movies, lame teenage romance novels, etc.) In the world of Dreams of Trespass though, it is believed that women are the weaker of the two sexes and lust far more. They believe that women need to be veiled so men will not go chasing after them. However, had we grown up in a harem ourselves, we would view veiling as natural; it would be our culture. Just as we don’t question that women can wear pants, we would not question that women wear veils. We would be used to it. Therefore, our reaction against veiling is because it is different than what we are used to, and goes against the equality that was indoctrinated into us at a young age.
- Rose Horowitz
I agree with your blog... not really sure what else to say...
DeleteI agree with your point that veiling seems a restrictive and foreign practice to us as a result of the society we live in, and that it wouldn't seem so strange had we grown up with veils all around us. However, even though the women in the harems may not find the veils as strange as we might, I'm not sure that they go entirely unquestioned. For example, on page 100, when Fatima puts on a head scarf to hide her dark hair from the Allemane, her mother forces her to take it off and tells her she never wants her daughters to cover their hair, as she has been "fighting against the veil" for too long. I think for a time, the veil was considered a traditional and accepted practice in Morocco, but by Fatima's generation it seems to have become something that is more questioned by the women.
Delete@Emma
DeleteI see, that's a good point. I didn't consider that angle because I was mostly considering how Americans react rather than how Moroccans react. To address that angle, I think that maybe the Moroccan women saw foreign women without headscarfs and wanted to be freer like the French. I guess this is kind of the idea that you can't want something you don't know exists. No one challenged veiling until they knew there was an alternative. Why do you think the women started to challenge veiling?
That's a very good question, and I think you are right that it had to do with the foreigners invading their country. Inside their small, separated, and restrictive harems, the women would not know that a world outside theirs and with different views than theirs exists, and would therefore have no reason to question the established rules. Once the French began to move in, the Moroccan women would have become aware that women existed elsewhere that did not have to wear headscarves, and would begin to question the difference. There may be another, bigger reason why this happened, but based on what we've read from the book, I think the influence of the French seems to be a logical explanation.
DeleteWhere do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteIn Dreams of Trespass, Fatima finds her sources of inspiration from Chama. She tells the reader that she often told herself she would be a magician as she watched Chama perform their skits on the terrace. She told herself as she watched Chama perform, that she would be affiliated with with some form of theatre. One person stands out though, a person who Chama would often portray in her plays. Asmahan, an arab woman of high standards. She wasn't like the others, wearing western styled clothing and not wearing the veil. Most of the women, especially Fatima, took Asmahan's bravery into account, and wished to be like her. She showed the women that happiness can be achieved along with a sensuous, self-indulgent life, never taking into consideration the laws of the Arab world. Most of all, Asmahan taught the Arab women that a life filled with self-indulgence, as short as it might be, is better than living a long and respectable one with a lethargic tradition.
-Reyann
Ah, yes, I forgot about how Asmahan wears Western clothes and no veil. I agree with the point you've made. But would the inspiration come from Asmahan or Chama, who is putting on the plays? I think maybe Chama plays a larger role than Asmahan because Chama exposes the other women to the pop culture and theatre.
DeleteI think you're right. Chama exposes the other women to the pop culture, because after all, Asmahan is dead and can't do it herself, so the other women rely on Chama to portray that culture through her plays. Thanks for replying :)
DeleteShould there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't think there should be a standard for gender equality anywhere. Men and women should be equal to each other, be able to participate in the same activities together. Take for instance, Malala. She stood up for female education, which is forbidden where she comes from, and her bravery payed off in the end. Each individual is unique and has the right to be unique, they shouldn't have to meet any standard for gender equality. Malala showed that no matter what religion a person practices, equality is always important when it comes to essential needs in life like education, and nobody should be deprived of it.
I like that you brought in the example of Malala, who lives in a restrictive society similar to Fatima's, and who, through her fight for a woman's right to education in her country, shows that gender equality is important and is worth fighting for.
DeleteReyann, I really liked your response; particularly the sentence, "Each individual is unique and has the right to be unique, they shouldn't have to meet any standard for gender equality." ((I thought that summed it up really nicely)). Also, Emma, I didn't even think about how both girls lived in similar conditions, awesome connection that is so cool. ((that sounds sarcastic wow not how I intended it))
DeleteI really liked your reference to Malala, and thought it was relevant enough to strongly support your argument. She is a huge equality figure today, which shows that there are still huge amounts of oppression out there.
Deleteand not only are there still huge amounts of oppression out there today, but that there are people (like Malala and Fatima's mother) who are willing to fight for change. I agree with Macey, the connection was both relevant and unexpected, but well delivered.
DeleteI really like your sentence, "Each individual is unique and has the right to be unique, they shouldn't have to meet any standard for gender equality". I definitely agree that while equality is important, there definitely should not be one standard that everyone has to conform to.
DeleteHow do the characters’ personal stories expand your understanding of the societies in which they live?
ReplyDeleteBy reading this book, one can understand how the restricted life in a harem worked upon women. For instance, during meal hours, the men were separated from the women, and then, the widows and children were separated from the more important women of the household. Women couldn't share the radio with the men, who deemed that part of the harem their area. The men also didn't allow the women out of the harem unless accompanied by a man, or whenever special occasions arose. Depending on what culture the reader comes from, in the case me being american, it gives me a sense of pity for the main character, knowing that she along with the other women were not being exposed to most things the men could be exposed to. The women in the harem didn't have much freedom even if they were staying within the boundaries. Therefore, the society is definitely repressive.
I am personally loving this book because of all of the things I am learning! But I have to say that I am more fond of Yasmina's harem than Fatima's because of how oppressive city life seemed to be. If I had to choose, I would not even mind being one of many wives. Of course, I am sure there are many women who prefer the enclosed lives of the walled city harem, or at least don't mind it. To some, tradition is more important and walls must be built to shield the women.
DeleteYes, what might be the perceived benefits of being one of many wives in a harem? I like how you're imagining the situation from a more traditional viewpoint—as a way of understanding that perspective.
DeleteTo respond to Ms. Vail's question and Sula's comment:
DeleteFor me, Yasmina's harem is better. While the rules are there, the walls aren't and one can almost imagine they are free. Being one of many wives in a harem creates a community where everyone shares and lives and works together. For example, Yasmina describes how the women work together to wash dishes and perform beauty routines. Chores are rotated so no one gets stuck with a task they hate, and working together speeds up dull tasks. Always being surrounded by other women gives one anonymity. However, this could be unpleasant if someone really desired attention, or there were bad group dynamics. On the other hand, some women might feel too exposed on the farm with no walls. For some women, the rules are a safety net that guide their lives and give them direction. Without rules, they feel lost. For those women, being hidden by walls would be ideal. So perhaps it is not always the men trying to guard their women, but the women trying to hide themselves?
That was deep Rose.
DeleteAs long as you don't have an attitude like Lala Thor, being one of many wives would not be to bad, as long as the other wives are also not like Lala Thor, you would have so many shoulders to lean on, so many friends/sisters. You would never be alone. Here in America so many marriages end unhappy, could it be that we have the wrong idea of what marriage should be? There are so many different arguments to be made on this opinion, where to start?
I also want to note that the two harems in the book are only two. There are many other types of harems, some combining polygamy with walls. I don't think that would be very fun.
Oh, and, the women in the walled harem also seem like sisters, but they have too many men around which allows them less freedom, making it seem like a less fun situation.
How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
ReplyDeleteAs Fatima grows, she learns that within the repressive society of the harems, there are many hududs, or sacred frontiers, that she must be wary of crossing, if she is permitted to cross them at all. Even in this restrictive atmosphere, however, she encounters several women that are not afraid to express their individuality or speak their minds. Yasmina, for one, Fatima’s maternal grandmother, lives in a harem outside the city where, while there are no visible walls to restrict her, many frontiers still exist. Yasmina, however, does not let this prevent her from speaking her mind when she finds something that she believes to be unjust. For instance, Yasmina names her fat white duck after Lalla Thor, another women in the harem who believes that, because of her position as Grandfather’s first wife, her wealth, and her light skin, she is entitled to better quarters and better treatment than the rest of Grandfather’s co-wives. Yasmina is very firm on the belief that “everyone is equal,” (pg. 26) and thinks that Lalla Thor has no right to act as if she is better than the rest of the women in Grandfather’s harem. So, even despite the very obvious frontier that requires Yasmina to show Lalla Thor respect, Yasmina goes on to breach this frontier in the name of her beliefs. Surprisingly, Grandfather does not punish her for doing so - in fact, he finds the whole thing rather amusing - because he appreciates and understands that this is the type of individual Yasmina is. Fatima’s mother, too, expresses her individuality in the face of an arrogant and entitled woman, Lalla Mani, that lives in the same harem. Mani is very much of the belief that rules should be strictly followed and respected, but Mother favors more looseness and freedom in life. For example, in their harem, meals are eaten at very specific times of day, and to miss or be late to a meal is considered to be “terribly rude and too openly individualistic.” (pg. 76) Mother expresses her individuality in this way, by waking up late and having a “late, lavish breakfast beneath the disapproving stare of Lalla Mani,” (pg. 76) even despite the frontiers that restrain her from doing so. Other women in Mother’s harem also flout the rules occasionally, by leaping to the neighboring roof to escape to the street below rather than using the harem gate; by sneaking into the locked cabinet that houses the radio when the men are out, and singing along to Radio Cairo; and by expressing openly their displeasure at the restrictiveness of the harem, and the possibilities of “breaking loose” from its frontiers (pg. 76). Cousin Chama and Aunt Habiba, in particular, also express themselves within the harems, by telling marvelous and captivating stories about the world outside the harems, as well as rather controversial stories about how the harems came to be.
I used the wrong account to post these questions and just switched to the right one, so just so everyone knows Lev = Emma Levy.
Delete@ Lev
DeleteOh, lol, I keep on getting my accounts mixed up too...
This is very well put together and I like how you brought up the frontiers (and how there are no walls on the farm, but the frontiers are still there).
While reading your post I was struck by the divide between the older, more traditional, richer women (Lalla Thor and Lalla Mani) and the more progressive, younger ones (Yasmina and the main character's mother). Was it your intention to emphasize this contrast? I think it's very interesting since it shows cultural evolution.
How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteOur society is very concerned with freedom of expression, freedom from oppression, and the principle of equality for all. However, this has not always been the case; throughout American history, women and various minorities, such as African-Americans, have not enjoyed complete equality in society. We have made enormous progress in the past century, though, with the Civil Rights Movement and the granting of voting rights to women. Our new generation is perhaps even more progressive, being very accepting of homosexuals and even being quite disturbed by signs of inequality, racism, and stereotypes. Therefore, reading or hearing about the practice of veiling in other countries is shocking to our society, as we are so supportive of equal rights for all, and especially for women. We see veiling as restrictive, as it is forced on women and they are not given the opportunity to change it, and unjust, as it so clearly and obviously divides the genders, and labels men as superior and more free than women.
I like the way you have addressed the gradual process of working towards equality. I didn't think to discuss that topic in my response and I think it makes your argument a lot stronger. I think that the women in "Dreams of Tresspass" are working through a similar struggle for equality.
DeleteI like the details you used about America's history to support your argument. I agree that, although we have not been the least oppressive country in the past and certainly have not rid ourselves of oppression today, we currently stand in a place where the majority of Americans find the restriction of expressing oneself through their appearance very cruel.
DeleteI liked how you addressed all of the issues our society has dealt with in the past. I also liked how you emphasized that the newer generations are much more open minded and accepting of new ideas, and also against many of the struggles people have faced such as slavery, stereotypes, and inequality. I completely agree with you on your statement that we see veiling as being restrictive.
DeleteShould there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteI fully believe that, throughout the world, there should be one single standard for gender equality: in society, women should always be considered equal to men. The difference between the sexes is solely physical - because of the way men are built, for the most part they are stronger than women - and there is no reason why men should be considered more intellectually or mentally capable than a woman. Even so, just because men are, in general, stronger than women, this does not mean that women are incapable of participating in the same athletic events or performing the same activities as men; it just means that they should not be compared to men in these activities, as the men will, more often than not, come out on top. However, this still should not be a reason for discrimination, as a woman cannot control the fact that her body is built a different way than a man’s. Besides, even though a male may be physically stronger than a female, this does not mean that women are less tough, less determined, or less courageous than men are; it simply means that they most likely would not be able to carry quite as much weight as a man could. Physical differences aside, however, there is no reason why a woman should be considered less valuable than a man, or to have less potential, or to have less capacity to be intelligent and creative. Both genders have the same capability to learn and to be important, and there is no reason why one gender should be considered superior to another. Several women in Dreams of Trespass, such as Fatima’s mother and Yasmina, her maternal grandmother, believe the same. As Yasmina says, “Are we Muslims or not? If we are, everyone is equal. Allah said so. His prophet preached the same.” (pg. 26)
Well, this is a little idealistic, but I'm gonna' throw this out there because why not:
DeleteI think that there should definitely be gender fairness, but I don't think there should be one equality standard, because what is equal in one situation, may not be equal in another situation. What is equal, is not always fair. Going straight to the example of (and I apologize if this is a little crude) bodily differences, (since this is the most obvious example of something that is not equal) there is usually a longer line in the women's restroom than the men's bathroom. To be equal you build the same number of female and male restrooms, but to be fair you build more female bathrooms because they are in higher demand. Another example is that women give birth. To be equal you give pregnancy leave to both women and men, or, on a less humane note, give it to neither. To be fair, you give pregnancy leave to women. I want to emphasize that my argument for "fairness" versus "equality" doesn't just apply to physical differences, so I'm going to give some examples not relating the body. To be equal in job opportunities, the same number of males and females should be accepted for a job. However, to be fair the people who want to do the job and are the most qualified should be accepted. If more women than men want to go into science (me choosing science here is random and is not intended to further my argument or suggest anything), they should be allowed to. If more men than women want to go into science, they should be allowed to. Acceptance should be based on expertise and qualification rather than giving an inept worker equal chances to a hardworking hopeful. A final example of fairness versus equality is one that addresses education. In school students are all given standardized tests. However, some students learn in different ways and at different speeds. To be fair, students who learn visually should be allowed to do hands on projects, while students who learn by listening should get to listen to lectures. Rather than regurgitating the same information on the same tests, students who are bad at timed assessments should be allowed to give a presentation. Students who have a hard time in a classroom should learn skills out in the field, and students should progress at their own pace. This is the difference between equality and fairness. Since there are so many differences even within a culture, imagine how much those variations grow when one crosses between cultures or religions. A Jew cannot be expected to worship Jesus, a Chinese person cannot be expected to abandon their ancestors, and an American person cannot be expected to bow to their superiors. A standard can hardly cross different situations within the same group of people, much less cultures. Therefore, it is not a standard/equality that we want, it is fairness. Each situation should be analyzed, and the road that is fair to each party based on their circumstances should be taken.
This is just another view that I wanted to get into people's minds, since being equal is not always the best thing for everyone because people are different.
First of all, I fully agree that everyone should be treated as an individual, and their needs should be attended to based on what sort of person they are and the differences that they have. However, the issue of fairness is highly subjective and depends largely on opinion - what is fair to one person may not be considered fair to another. So how would we as a society be able to create a set of rules about what is fair and what isn't? In a perfect utopia, this might be possible, but in a world full of bigotry and prejudice and stereotypes, who would be able to successfully police this issue of fairness so that everyone was satisfied? Therefore, it is important instead to create equal opportunities, as I was saying, and not discriminate on the basis of gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc., rather than concerning ourselves with creating a system of complete fairness.
DeleteSecond of all, I was not proposing that everyone should be totally equal and not be individuals, but rather I was saying that everyone should be given equal opportunities to succeed, as both genders have the same capacity to learn and be intelligent, to work hard and to be important. However, just because someone has this capacity does not necessarily mean that they will use it, and I therefore agree with you completely that, for example, jobs should be given based on expertise and qualification, and that no person should encounter job discrimination on the basis of sex. Also, although I agree that the different capabilities and special needs of students should be addressed in schools, this is not relevant to the issue of gender equality. I also am in full support of cultures and religions believing what they want to believe, and I am not here to force others to believe what I do. Therefore, I accept that other cultures and religions may have their own standards for gender equality, but my personal belief is that women and men are equally capable in intellectual and mental aspects, and that no one should be discriminated upon based on sex. Everyone is free to believe what they want to in relation to the differences between men and women, but this response asked me for my personal opinion, which is that there should be one standard for gender equality throughout the world. And in saying this, I do not mean that everything in society should be completely and utterly equal and not have anything to do with fairness or the differences and special needs of individuals - I simply mean that women should be considered equal to men with regard to their intellectual and mental capacities, and should be given equal opportunities in society.
I just can't wait until beings of the human race all look and work exactly alike and anyone can produce asexually. That is a perfect utopia right there. And that is sarcasm, it would be terrible to loose all individuality, even if it means equality for everyone.
DeleteI agree with both of you that fairness does not always come with equality and that, though each human mind work differently, women should be considered complete equals to men in that sense.
I am not going to write a page long essay about it though, good job guys :)
A wonderful discussion going on here. Great fodder for the final project!
Delete@ Lev:
DeleteYou are so good at arguing... T^T Now I have to come up with a response.
So yes, what I posted is really idealistic. It is a really subjective topic, so thanks for bringing that point up. Also, I used the point of students with special needs/advanced students to give an example of equality versus fairness. It outlines the subtle difference between the two words, not the difference between genders.
In your last few lines, it sounds like what you are supporting is a society with no discrimination, not one with a standard for equality, correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. This is different than a standard though, because everyone must conform to a standard, whereas removing discrimination is all about destroying standards. In this situation I am going to bring up the play we just went to see. Samar, who is free and lives in America where equality is a strong value, wants to force others to wear the veil, whereas Intisar is worried about being forced to veil and wants to get rid of veiling. Samar and Intisar represent to extremes of a situation and are both trying to force their standards on each other. One standard is not okay for these two opposing views. A happy medium needs to be found between the two views, and that is a society with no discrimination. Samar could wear her veil without being told she is being oppressed, and Intisar could walk freely without being told she is disrespectful. This is not the same as "equality", but it perhaps makes it so "equality" is not needed. For example, when people are getting accepted to a job if there is no prejudice towards one ethnic group or another, then everyone has equal chances of getting the job based on their qualifications, not race, religion, etc. This is different than an equal society where everyone has the same chances and must be the same. If a woman were to wear pants in such a society, no man would question her. Likewise, if a man were to wear a dress, no one would judge him. This is also a very idealistic society, but it is a less idealistic and vague concept than fairness, and less oppressive than a universal standard that is forced on everyone.
@ Sula
gonna' throw in some science... asexual reproduction is a bad idea and I agree with that bit of sarcasm. Cloning is just terrifying. Why be normal when you can be different.
@Roseeee
DeleteThrow all the science you want. :3
I have read so many sci-fi books in which the government tries to make everyone the same. Maybe I should diverge from dystopian books for awhile...
How do the characters’ personal stories expand your understanding of the societies in which they live?
ReplyDeleteOn the whole, their stories taught me (or at least brought to my attention) that everyone in the harem holds a certain position in the hierarchy (but not in nearly as an oppressive way as I would have previously expected) and that each individual person has certain boundaries, literal and figurative, that they cannot cross. For example, how Fatima and her cousins are not allowed to speak to Lalla Mani, let alone step foot on her carpet, with wet feet. Although, the children do have the freedom of leaving the gate if permitted by a parent, while the women may not without a chaperone. It also expanded my understanding by their accounts of how restrictions were moderately inconvenient, but they saw it more as a safety net in which they could have a secure home base, especially in such a politically confusing and intimidating time as the 1940's. Having not only the wives and children stay close to home, but also the widows, widowers, and divorcees provided them a refuge for stable living and as protection from the foreign governments that they were surrounded by. Fatima's father sums it up simply by saying, when questioned by harem life, "Where will the troubled women go?"
I completely forgot about the carpet thing in the beginning.
DeleteI happen to think it was cool that anyone who arrived late to eat were seated together no matter what class they were in the hierarchy, I have a feeling that Lalla Mani never arrived late.
Oh, that is a good point how the rules are a safety net. I think as foreigners an alarm that says "oppression, bad, must have freedom" immediately goes off in our heads, but we forget to consider the fact that for these people the rules structure their lives. Without structure, society would be in chaos. We, as Americans, are so against hierarchies of this sort, but we forget that everything in our lives (aside from friendship), from families, to work, to the government, is a hierarchy of some sort.
DeleteHowever, on the other side, you didn't address the people who want to break away from the boundaries. For example, Fatima's mother and Chama want desperately to break away from the hierarchy.
How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteWe as Americans, who largely have a great sense of individuality and freedom and more importantly whose nation was based off of a fight against oppression, we (generally) are very confrontational and uncomfortable when faced with creative restriction, such as that of even minor dress codes, and view it as an attack on our basic rights as human beings. This mindset, that has been in place pretty much since the United States' foundation, has caused us to view veiling as a barbaric, invasive, and sexist construct (although, I'm not implying a personal viewpoint) that is, again, a restrictive attack on basic rights of expression. And based on the accounts of the characters, opinions on the topic are varied; some, like Fatima, are indifferent toward the tradition and believe that it's not that big of a deal one way or the other and then there are women like her mother who believe in feministic ideals and that head scarves are a sign of weakness and submissiveness. So, in a way, the viewpoints are similar between the two countries, but I think that in America, it's symbolic in that it is a sign of systematic patriarchal oppression, while the Moroccan viewpoint (at least Fatima's mother) is more symbolic in that veiling is a sign of outdated ideals.
((But I could be entirely incorrect, and feel free to disagree))
I think you made a really powerful argument in describing America's basis off of fighting against oppression. As a nation, we have seemed to at become rather uncomfortable with creative restriction, and I think your use of the dress code was a very good example of that. I agree in that, because of this mindset, many Americans would see veiling as a restriction of the basic right to express oneself through their appearance. In countries where people are accustomed to this, however, it might be seen as part of their culture or tradition, which is why they might not make a big deal out of it.
DeleteYou made a really good point by saying that when we as Americans are faced with specific restrictions, we may feel like people are interfering with our rights when really, some rules do need to be set! Agreeing with Macey, I thought the dress code was a great example. I feel like even individuals who wear veils in America have different opinions about them, though. Here, they have the choice to wear a veil whereas in other countries, they may not have a choice. Since people here possibly have the choice whether to wear a veil or not, they may not feel as strongly about wearing it or not wearing it compared to people that HAVE to wear a veil.
DeleteShould there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteOn a human-to-human scale: As far as establishing a universal legislation for gender equality and treatment, as lovely as equal treatment would be, I do not believe that the world as a whole would greatly and ultimately benefit from a shiny new world order. I fully believe in the ideals of feminism and equal treatment for all genders, but what has me hung up on this question is that I do not believe that a legislative "box" in which guidelines how people must behave from now on and generic metallic dullness of a cookie cutter world-- I support a more natural, free-flowing Earth where humans dictate how they shape their world. Although, reverting back to the original point of this question, I do think that if gender oppression were to be erased from the history books, just a bit of prodding in the right direction as far as acceptance and equality goes wouldn't hurt-- after that, I would prefer to let humans run their course. I think that a universal government implication of how to behave would do more harm than good. Ideally, life would be a meritocracy rather than matriarchy or patriarchy (but this response is already getting too civil rights movement-esque).
On a government-to-citizens scale: I believe that the government might do well to enforce measures of equality politically (examples being pay, job opportunities, clothing restrictions, etc.)
((I feel like this is far too off-topic, sorry ehh))
I really like your idea that equality should not be forced by the government, but rather accepted by the people. Although the government can encourage people to be more accepting, their acceptance could be out of fear or abiding of the law rather than their own beliefs. If everyone believed that all people should be equal, than gender equality throughout the world would be much more genuine.
Deleteaw I like how you worded that and expanded on it, yeah I totally agree.
DeleteI agree with you on this. As nice as it would be to have gender equality in the world, I don't see it happening soon. If the government were to force this on people, I also agree that it would do more harm than good because people don't like to be told what to do. Obviously people should treat others with respect and equality but that doesn't happen all the time. If you compare our country to others, you can see a significant difference in the way women are treated and what they can and can't do. I think is that men and women are completely capable of doing the same things and neither should be looked down upon.
DeleteSo would you all support one standard for equal opportunity for men & women throughout the world? You make a good point that a government can't enforce beliefs, after all. But it can enforce equal opportunity. O would that be going too far as well?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI really liked that you made the connection about how veiling isn't as big of a deal to its practitioners as it is to those raised in a liberal nation where expression is seen as a basic human right. Nice answer!
DeleteShould there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteIn a perfect world, there would be a reasonably undisputed standard for gender equality throughout the world. In today's world, however, it would be difficult for that standard to come about. Although as a society we have advanced far in many countries on the topic of male and female rights and equality, there are still large issues facing mental equality around the world, and still a large number of people who believe that one gender is superior in certain fields than the other. It is difficult to compare men and women physically, as they are built in very different ways and have different capacities for different things. Mentally, however, it would be preferable if men and women were thought of as equal. Because mental capacity and usage is often based on how hard someone works, rather than the physically aspects of the brain, in a perfect world men and women would be thought of as intellectual equals. However, that is not the world we currently live in.
Most importantly, however, men and women should be thought of as creative equals. Men and women should be able to express themselves creatively in whichever way they choose. This could mean, in reference to veisl, that men and women can wear similar clothing styles or amounts of clothing, and that the way someone chooses to dress should not be based on their gender. If a man wants to wear skirts or jewelry, it should not be thought of as strange or abnormal. If a woman wants to wear pants or wishes to leave her face uncovered, she should be given the freedom to decide that herself.
How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteThe practice of veiling and restrictions on dress vary throughout different cultures, which causes people of those diverse cultures to have differing and possibly conflicting opinions. In America, for example, where most people are relatively free to choose the style or lack of clothing, the act of veiling would likely be viewed as restrictive, cruel, and an infringement on basic human rights. Within cultures that this practice is the norm, however, veiling may be seen as part of tradition or the culture, and its practicers therefore may not view it quite as harshly.
Fatima, for example, describes Christians as "...moody...when the sun did not show up for months..." (Mernissi 93) and is shocked by the awful taste of their tea. To Christians, however, the cold likely would not seem as a huge problem, and they would be used to their tea.
I agree. Different cultures often are quick to judge on things that are unfamiliar. People used to the vail and take it very seriously likely look down on us naked American females and find us insulting. Not all of course, but quite a few I am sure. Americans look down on the vail with the same amount of insultedness, perhaps even more, as they do to us.
DeleteIt is just so hard for human beings not to judge everything they lay eyes on with no research. We all care so much about the cover of the book.
Where do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteThe characters in this novel seem to find inspiration in the stories that they share throughout the harem. For example, the story of One Thousand and One Nights describes the bravery of Scheherazade, a woman who risks her life by spending the night with a man who is known for killing women that he sleeps with. Using words, however, Scheherazade is able to stay alive by keeping the man hooked on her stories. This inspires Fatima when she realizes the absolute power of words, and causes her to notice their power throughout her life. The word harem, for example, seems to strike anger in the hearts of the majority of the women that she encounters.
Yes! I really like how you've used words and stories as an example of inspiration! When I responded to this question I went more along the line of people, so this is an interesting viewpoint. To add to the literary theme, Chama gets inspiration from "The Tale of the Birds and Beasts" and everyone loves listening to Aunt Habiba's stories because they let the women momentarily escape their mundane lives.
DeleteI agree; the largest source of inspiration in the Mernissi women's lives is definitely the stories they tell around the harem. I included Princess Budur, one of the characters in Scheherazade's stories, as an example of a source of inspiration, but hadn't considered Scheherazade herself as one.
DeleteFatima finds a source of inspiration from her grandmother Yazmina. She admires how the women are allowed to run free and do fun things in the outdoors, and envies that she cannot participate in these activities at her own harem. She also finds inspiration from the plays acted out by her cousin and aunts as they tell stories of women such as Princess Asmahan. Asmahan lived her life on the fast side, and did not go along with society's expectations for women. The women in the harem admired her for this, and her romantic and exciting life brought entertainment to their isolation.
ReplyDeleteHow do the characters’ personal stories expand your understanding of the societies in which they live?
ReplyDeleteEach personal story seems to give more and more on the topic of each different society mentioned, specifically harems. Each one of Yasmina's tales brings to light a completely different way of thinking about harems than stories from the city harem. The rules of the two places are caused by setting as well as the lack or presence of polygamy in the areas. I find it extremely interesting when one of Yasmina's tales explains how the other co-wives interact, or how problems are presented to the husband. On the other hand, it is also interesting to hear about how the women in city walls find fun in what they have. Behavior in upper and lower class interactions is also prominent in most stories told so far, such as class seating arrangements at dinner in the city, and Lalla Thor's expectation to be honored more than the other wives because of her large dowry. Each story adds its own piece to the puzzle.
How are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
ReplyDeleteThe best example I can think of is when they heard on the radio about the the nuclear bomb hitting Japan and how that threw all of her cousins in to despair, thinking that the Christians would attack them next only for the sake of attacking Muslims. Or that is the way it sounded in the story.
Westernization of the world seems to be effecting the city harem as well, how Fatima's mother dresses her in the latest western styles and how the once popular polygamy is not very common in the walled homestead. Times change and it is much more evident in the City than the farm harem.
To add to this, I think that before Western ideas were introduced women might not have questioned veiling as much. The harem women are always wanting to be free like the French, but before the French came, they wouldn't have known that kind of freedom existed.
DeleteAlso, the children are sent to Western school and the whole family is terrified of the Allemane (Germans) coming to kill everyone with dark hair (the reason they come up with as for why the Germans are killing everyone).
I definitely think that westernization was a huge change that impacted the harem. Fatima noticed women go from wearing heavy headscarves and coats that were really hard to walk in to wearing light and see-through headscarves and coats for men, to very western dresses.
DeleteThose see-through veils seem quite scandalous~
DeleteThis kind of reminds me of "the white man's burden" and how the west (France in this case) seems to spread like a disease through places like Morocco. Influencing everything and everyone. Which could be good and bad.
Where do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteFatima seemed to find inspiration in all of the women around her in her childhood. Her mother, Aunt Habiba, and Yasmina being the most prominent in her memoirs. When her mother tells her to live her life in 100% happiness, she intends to do so. That seems pretty inspire-driven to me. Yasmina finds her own inspiration in her co-wives, most of whom she is extremely close with. Tamou seemed to be a wonderful inspiration for all of the co-wives. She showed them that they could be tough instead of fragile and still be great women. She inspired the wives to express themselves more freely. So people (mostly women) seemed to look to each other for inspiration and they found plenty.
I thought it was interesting how they all seemed to look to each other for inspiration. They all found inspiration in the stories that each of them told and the plays that each of them put on as well, but in the end all of those things could be traced back to the women who created them.
DeleteYeah, this reminds me of how Aunt Habiba told Fatima that she would have to develop a talent and how that talent would be used to entertain and inspire the next generation (she did not say that last bit, that was just me thinking).
DeleteWhere do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteFatima is a very prying and eager child with many questions regarding life around her. Inspiration in Fatima's life comes from her aunt and her mother. Fatima's mother inspires her to be happy and content with herself and her life. Another key influential character that inspired Fatima is her grandmother, Yasmina. Activities and freedoms that other women have outside the harem inspire Fatima and the other women and they long for a similar life.
Should there be one standard for gender equality throughout the world? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteThere should be one standard for gender equality throughout the world. When comparing more sophisticated nations to those further behind, there can be a major contrast in gender equality, such as in comparing American gender standards to those in the middle east. Having equal gender rights would eliminate unjust superiority over women in third world countries, and would make living environments safer, given that radical religious and political views towards the rights of women were completely eliminated. Equal gender rights would also aid struggling nations in moving forward in an ever-growing world economy by allowing for equal education opportunities and eventually a more knowledgable generation of workers would be able to take advantage "white collar" careers. Gender equality would also promote a positive social environment within communities. There can be nothing more unpleasant than being required to act a certain way, dress a certain way, and only be allowed to do certain things in public, all the while being surrounded by the opposite gender having free will. With the absence of this restriction and suppression, a more positive social environment will come of it.
How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteOur cultural background (as of the past few decades) has shaped the perception of veiling as an act of suppression towards women in other countries, however for those who are better educated than the common person would be more understanding and knowledgable of the reasons behind the practice. Unfortunately, the middle east and many cultures that practice veiling of women has been tainted with radical notions of terrorism and extremist behavior. For the well educated person, we know that to be false, and that only a small group of people who associate themselves with these locations and religions are actively involved in terrorism. A very very small group compared to the very large group of people who are islamic, live in the middle east, practice veiling, and resent the small group of extremists who have misrepresent them. So our cultural background, unfortunately, has associated such practices with violent actions and extremest movements, and has given a negative image to a common religious/political practice in said regions.
Which character makes the more compelling argument in your opinion? Why?
ReplyDeleteI personally followed Samar's argument better, Intisar seemed to be egging Samar on and turning every discussion of beliefs into an argument, so it was harder for me to like Intisar. Samar was a devout practicing Muslim, and seemed to take her religion more seriously than Intisar. Samar only wanted to be her best before God and there was Intisar, thinking that veiling was bad. Samar was not perfect, but I found her much more sensible than Intisar who was getting into danger and partying. It made more sense to me to follow the side of the argument whose arguer took her studies, religious or not, seriously. But in the end the two were really just arguing for the same thing, choice, to wear or not to wear the vail.
The main point of contention between Intisar and Samar in the play is their differing opinions on the practice of veiling. Which character makes the more compelling argument, in your opinion? Why?
ReplyDeleteIntisar makes the better argument because, although she is more hot-headed and impulsive than Samar, she is less naive. Samar comes from America where, although she experiences racial prejudice based on her appearance, she can freely choose to wear the veil or not. No one is forcing her to veil or not veil, so she naively believes that all Muslims must veil, forcing her own ideas on others. Samar does not know what it is like to be forced to do something she doesn't want to do, so when she tries to tell Intisar to veil, it comes off as very rude. Intisar, however, lives in a society where being forced to veil is a very real possibility. There are violent protests and government censoring. Intisar has a lot more life experience to support her argument. Intisar may appear to be living in the moment carelessly, but she does try to change the world in her own way. She devotedly represents her view at protests and rallies, and writes her blog to try to educate people about the issues of veiling. Samar and Intisar are both terrible hypocrites though. Samar wants all Muslims to veil, and Intisar wants women to not veil. They are forcing their standards on each other. Throughout the play they are often quite unwilling to change their minds, forgetting about free choice. This makes it a little hard for me to listen to either of their arguments, because they are unwilling to listen to the other side.
I like the point that you made in the last sentence - that you have difficulty agreeing with either argument because both Intisar and Samar are so unwilling to listen to the other's opinion. I would agree that this is certainly true for most of the play, but by the end they both seem to have reached the point where they understand the other's position, even if they don't necessarily accept it for themselves.
DeleteAlso, I think you might have mixed up the names? I was pretty sure Intisar was the African-American and Samar was the Egyptian, but I could be wrong - the names were so confusing!
I really like what you brought in about the American being more naive. That is definitely a huge factor in their differing opinions, as one lives in a society that is surrounded by places in which veiling is forced, and the other lives in a place where she likely will never have to worry about her freedom of expression to be repressed.
DeleteHow are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
ReplyDeleteChanges and events in society result in the characters being slowly Westernized, despite their efforts to resist. The French invasion brings with it different styles of dress, makeup, and most importantly education. To begin with, the men of the family start dressing in suits and learn French. Zin in particular cuts his hair short and dresses like a Westerner, gets a French education, and speaks French well. Meanwhile the women of the family receive French clothing, such as Vienna hats and Fatima's white tulle dress. Fatima's mother insists on using traditional makeup, but wears Channel perfume. More importantly, the French bring with them their education system. Fatima and her cousins are all enrolled in French school where even women can go. Fatima loves French school so much that she quickly becomes smart. With education comes freedom, so the future of women becomes brighter with French schooling. Also, the French culture upsets tradition. For example, the harem women want to be free like the French women. Before the French arrived, the women would not have known this freedom existed. So French ideas are encouraging women to demand a better lot in life.
How is the practice of veiling (or restrictions on dress in general) reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles? How do these attitudes affect characters’ lives?
ReplyDeleteThe practice of veiling is reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles because it shows that women are a tier below men in the social hierarchy. It is believed that if a woman could be seen, men would just want to run around and have fun instead of doing work. Yet it is the women who are punished for the men's shortcomings. Women are made to cover their skin and wear veils. This shows that a woman's place is to be obedient. She must behave and not instigate any mischief. As Yasmina says, the rules are usually against women because they aren't made by women. Another point that Habiba brings up is that skin is like politics to women. They can feel the world through their skin and since it's forbidden to show it, they are making a political statement if they show their skin. This shows that men are trying to control their women by making them dress certain ways. In this culture, clothing is one way that men assert their dominance over females. Finally, the way women embroider their clothes is a statement. Instead of sticking to traditional patterns, Fatima's mother, Chama, and Habiba embroider birds with their wings spread wide to symbolize rebellion and freedom. This is strongly frowned upon by the older women because women are supposed to be obedient. To examine another point of view, the restrictive dress of women might be a way men are trying to protect their women from other men in kind of an exaggerated overprotective parent way.
These attitudes completely shape the characters lives because they force them to live within the harem walls and never go out wearing what they please. The men in power keep their women inside to protect them and to control them. Therefore the women resort to stories, plays, and other forms of self expression to escape and grow wings.
Also, I forgot to add a bit about the story of Princess Budur. Princess Budur's story proves that the only difference between men and women is their clothing. Men use clothing to both separate themselves from women and assert the dominance over them.
DeleteThis particular rationale for veiling, as a means of protecting women from men, has always seemed hypocritical to me. If men truly wish to cultivate respect for women, then male self-control would be the place to start. Incidentally, I loved Intisar's sarcastic quip about resisting the allure of men's "hairy behinds" sticking up during prayer. If women are expected to act discreetly around exposed male flesh, then men should be able to do the same around women. Otherwise, there's a tacit assumption that all men are libidinous and inclined to violate women's honor. Hmm...
DeleteHow do the characters’ personal stories expand your understanding of the societies in which they live?
ReplyDeleteFrom the characters' stories I was able to learn that they live in a very structured society, but while they try to express themselves in small ways, the structure is a very big part of their lives. For example, even though the women don't like all of the rules, Fatima states that she feels scared at Yasmina's farm because there are no clear frontiers. Although the women need some structure, there are many cases where the structure is too strict and they search for means of self-expression. For example, Aunt Habiba secretly embroiders a green bird with its wings defiantly spread. She wants to express her dreams, but must embroider traditionally in front of the other women because she is too low down on the hierarchy to risk getting in trouble. Also, the women must ask the men to buy silks for them because they can't go to the market themselves. This shows how strict the social hierarchy is. Another example is that women aren't allowed to dance, but Mina and the women secretly go to the hadra so Mina can dance freely and let the djinni inside her out. A final example are the stories the women tell. They cannot do as they please, so they use their imagination and words to make their dreams momentarily come true. For example, the story of Princess Budur shows that the only difference between men and women is clothing, and "The Tale of the Birds and the Beasts" tells of a quest for happiness that women are forbidden from embarking on. Overall, I learned that the women live in a very structured society and while they do try to have individuality and chase their dreams, they could not live without some structure in their lives.
I like the point you brought up about the social hierarchy of the memoir. There is a definite social hierarchy to the harem, which caused many of the women to long to break from the structure, such as in the examples you mentioned. Another that came to mind was when Chama tried to leave to go see movies and was dragged back. She longed to break from the structure for just a moment in order to go to the movies, but was soon forced back into the structure that she spent every day in.
DeleteThe main point of contention between Intisar and Samar in the play is their differing opinions on the practice of veiling. Which character makes the more compelling argument, in your opinion? Why?
ReplyDeleteI think both characters had equally compelling arguments, and that the beliefs that each had were appropriate for them as individuals. I really liked how, at the very end of the play, Samar told Intisar "may they never make me wear a veil, and never make you take it off." (I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of what she said.) I agree with this view; that everyone should be allowed to have their own opinions, and should not be forced by anyone to change their beliefs.
Samar's qualms with the veils stemmed not from religious reasons, but political ones. She did not want to be forced by anyone to have to wear a veil, and did not like that since her mother's time, Egyptian society had gone backward, actually becoming more restrictive rather than more progressive. In refusing to wear a veil in public and dressing how she wanted, Samar was not trying to disobey her religion, but rather trying to make a political statement for a woman's right to freedom in her country. As Americans, we are very understanding of this desire for freedom, and I therefore understand and agree with Samar's position on veiling.
Intisar had a different view from Samar; she was proud of her religion and her culture and wanted to wear the veil. Samar could not understand this, just as Intisar could not understand Samar's desire to take the veil off. But eventually, Intisar makes both the audience and Samar understand and even empathize with her position, especially when one hears her talk of her first veil. She was proud of wearing that veil, as it was a sort of "rite of passage" that symbolized her acceptance into the culture that she respected so much.
By the end of the play, I could understand where each of the characters was coming from, and why they had their specific positions. Therefore, to me, both arguments were equally compelling. The position that each had concerning the veil was both understandable and appropriate for them as individuals.
I really liked how you made the connection that Samar's viewpoint was a political movement and that it didn't make her a bad Muslim or oppose her deep-set religious beliefs. I also liked that your response displayed both arguments for what they were and what they were motivated by.
DeleteI also like how you made the connection with a political movement.. I don't think Samar WASN'T proud of her religion, I think she was just frustrated that things in her culture were going so poorly rather than getting better. Intisar had the choice to wear the veil and Samar didn't, so in that respect she could have been slightly jealous and it could be used as even more motivation to get her country where she wanted it to be.
DeleteThe main point of contention between Intisar and Samar in the play is their differing opinions on the practice of veiling. Which character makes the more compelling argument, in your opinion? Why?
ReplyDeleteI believe that both characters had relatively compelling arguments, although each one seemed to be on a rather extreme end of the spectrum. I would identify my beliefs as in between the two arguments in that everyone should be able to the extent that they wear or do not wear veils. However, overall Samar seemed to make the most compelling argument.
Samar based her argument slightly more on fact and experience than Intisar did. Samar explained how in neighboring countries veiling was becoming forced upon woman, and she could see Egypt nearing the same fate due to the events that often led up to loosing the freedom of choosing what to wear.
Intisar also weakened her argument by bringing in that she thought that Samar was a bad Muslim for not wearing a hijab. The backbone to Intisar's argument was that women should have the choice to wear whatever head or body covering that they wanted, and by saying that, as a Muslim, Samar did not have the choice to not wear a head covering, she seemed almost hypocritical. So, although I do not completely agree with either extreme, I think that Samar had the most compelling argument.
Like Rose did, I'm glad you made the point about the American being naive; I didn't bring that into my own argument and I think it makes yours a lot stronger. Samar definitely has more experience than Intisar, and I agree that this gives her reasons for not wanting to wear the veil slightly more strength than Intisar's reasons for doing the opposite.
DeleteHow do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
ReplyDeleteIn this book, "individuality" can be interpreted in several ways. One might say that Aunt Habiba expresses her intellectual individuality by telling wonderful stories to the children of the harem, expressing and passing on her wisdom and creativity through the media of fictional storytelling. One might also say that individuality is expressed in rebellion against common rules and guidelines, which comes up quote often in the book. For example, Yasima's blatant but thoughtful disregard for the custom of respect for her co-wife Lalla Thor by naming her fat white pet duck after her (in which even Fatima’s stern and stoic grandfather found humor.) Another example of this individualistic rebellion is Fatima’s mother’s disregard for the routine of set and scheduled mealtimes and the traditional idea of being punctual; she, rather, has the mindset that breakfast can start late and that they can be lavish.
I really liked your realization that individuality is expressed in different ways for different people. Characters like Fatima’s mother, for example, may express it through their rebellious beliefs, whereas characters like Aunt Habiba express it intellectually through stories. Fatima also expressed her individuality when she did acrobatics during plays, showing off her true talent.
DeleteLike Macey said, I really liked that you made the point that individuality can mean different things for different people. Aunt Habiba seems to express herself less radically than Fatima's mother; not blatantly disregarding a rule in the face of Lalla Mani like Mother does, but embroidering her bird wings in secret and telling wonderful stories. I wonder if these differences have anything to do with their positions in society? Mother has more power in the harem because she is a wed wife with children, but Aunt Habiba has less because she has no husband, which maybe might make it less acceptable for her to be rebellious.
Deletethat's actually a very interesting point. I think it may also be influenced by their natural personalities; although, it could also be argued that Fatima's mother has more opportunity and allowance when she has the security of a husband and children and could therefore develop such an opinionated, rebellious personality.
DeleteHow is the practice of veiling (or restrictions on dress in general) reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles? How do these attitudes affect characters’ lives?
ReplyDeleteVeiling in this book is reflective of the harem. The harem is made to hide the women, so that they cannot be stolen. Veils were like portable harems that hid the women in public and from others within the harem. There was a whole section on page 118 on Fatima's mother and her fight against the traditional wear for outside the harem which included a suffocating white cotton veil and a haik also made of white cotton that was almost impossible to move in. Her mother seemed very affected by the traditional wear because of how often she rebelled and complained to her husband about it. I think that Yasmina, being in such an open harem, never wore such a hindering piece of fabric. There are many ways to implement the rules of a harem, Fatima and her mother just ended up in one more closed off.
I really like the point you made about veils being like portable harems. I hadn't really thought of them that way until you said that, but it makes a lot of sense. Veils are society's way of keeping women in the same secureness and hiding that the harem provides no matter where they go. That may be the reason why many members of the harem, Fatima's mother especially, dislike wearing veils--they make it so that they can never really escape the confinement of the harem.
DeleteI like the connection you made to the dislike of wearing heavy veils. That makes sense to me. I appreciate your comment. ^ ^
DeleteThe main point of contention between Intisar and Samar in the play is their differing opinions on the practice of veiling. Which character makes the more compelling argument, in your opinion? Why?
ReplyDeleteI thought that both Samar’s and Intisar’s arguments had fairly the same amount of logic backing it up as well as roughly an equal amount of justification for their differing opinions, and I could honestly identify with both and see where they were coming from with their opinions. That being said, I did find Samar’s argument to be just slightly more compelling, not because of the amount of logic and evidence to back up her argument, but because I felt that it was stronger as a whole. I thought that her argument was strong in that she brought up the background and domestic politics behind her stance with Egypt being surrounded by countries that had used the veils as a sign of their freedom in years past and have now been legally forced to wear them at all times, and how veils had become a mask, for women to throw on a scarf and suddenly become holy and pure. I also really liked her argument that the absence of a scarf forces the person to be judged on their morals, character, and who they are as a person before God, rather than just another face under a sheet. And while I felt that Intisar was entirely justified in wanting the freedom to wear the hijab as she pleased, as a sign of her religious pride, I just did not feel as though her argument had the same well-roundedness that Samar’s did. I also loved that the play was concluded with the simple phrase, "may they never make me wear a veil, and never make you take it off."
When I replied to this myself, I had decided that I really didn't think that either of them had a more compelling argument but after reading this, I agree with you. Samar kind of made it seem like she didn't need to be hiding behind a veil for her religion to mean anything, like you say, she felt as if someone wasn't wearing their scarf, they were to be judged of their morals, character, etc. If someone isn't wearing a veil, it doesn't mean that they're more religious than someone who is.
DeleteI don’t think that either argument from either character in Veils was more powerful than the other. Both characters strongly expressed what they thought about women wearing a veil and explained exactly what it meant to them. In the end they both realize that neither of them or right or wrong and they begin to realize how different the cultures are in Egypt and American, although they both practice the same religion. Intisar was a black American muslim; she grew up wearing a veil whereas Samar, an Egyptian muslim grew up very differently. The cultures varied so much between the two that it was hard for them both to see the other side; Samar was all about womens rights and thinking that she shouldn’t have to hide herself. When Intisar expressed her opinion about the veil she explained that to her, it meant pleasing god and it felt right for her to wear to veil, she was proud of it.
ReplyDeleteHow are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
ReplyDeleteEven though Fatima and her family live in a walled harem, their horizons are significantly influenced by the arrival of the French in Morocco. Even as a child, Fatima is aware of the differences between the Moroccan side and French side of the community-- the Moroccan side is ancient, twisting, and unaltered mirroring the close-knit but vaguely claustrophobic nature of the harem. The French side, however, is straight, clean, and orderly-- the streets filled with motorcars that don’t belong there and reconstructed roads to accommodate them. Fatima’s family, the women especially, take note of what they see around them and what they hear on the radio and become intrigued and a small rebellious flame is sparked. I think that after being exposed to freedoms like music and conflicts like the wars in which they identified with (ex. WWI and their connection with Jews), they began to experiment with pushing the boundaries on a small scale-- with safe, respectful rebellions like Fatima’s mom and mealtimes or Yasima and her duck.
I like that you brought in the example of the French society compared to the Moroccan society. I definitely agree that the presence of the apparently very un-restrictive French, and being exposed to new freedoms, makes the Moroccans question the restrictiveness of their own societies.
DeleteWhere do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteOne of the most prominent sources of inspiration in Fatima’s life in particular is Scheherezade from Aunt Habiba’s retelling of A Thousand and One Nights. The story of Scheherezade taught Fatima that women are not always quiet because they are silenced or oppressed, but because they are skillful and thoughtful and selective with their words. This teaches Fatima that her words can be powerful enough to overcome or change the heart of brute force and blind oppression (like King Schahriar in the story). This story affected Fatima in particular because she was such a curious young girl with a million questions about the “what”s, “why”s, and “how”s of things as broad as the world and intricate as the hierarchy of the harem.
How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
ReplyDeleteThe characters assert their individuality within their repressive society by sticking to their beliefs and making them known. Fatima’s mother, for example, stubbornly stood up against Fatima’s father in order for him to allow her to wear male coats and a lighter head covering. He was extremely reluctant at first, but by persisting and letting her passion shine through she was able to take hold of what she wanted.
Chama’s individuality shines through in her acting. All of the plays she puts on and her ability to lead the performances set her apart. Her love of presenting her audience with a story gives her an individual personality that no one can take away. One woman from the harem said that the talent that people continue to express later in life will be one that makes other people truly happy, and the different talents that each member of the harem have to make others happy is also a huge source of individuality and variation within their society.
How is the practice of veiling (or restrictions on dress in general) reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles? How do these attitudes affect characters’ lives?
ReplyDeleteThe restrictions of dress show the great barrier between the attitudes toward gender roles within the harem and the attitudes in the rest of the society. For example, women on the streets began wearing light and see-through headscarves rather than the heavy burdening headscarves that they wore before. They also started wearing men’s jackets, which gave them freedom to take longer strides and use their arms. When Fatima’s mom asked Fatima’s father for this freedom, however, he refused. She was eventually able to, but only through persistence, and by that point women outside of the harem had started wearing westernized dresses. One of the men of the harem also compared women dressing like men to be the end of the world, which is an entirely different from the western view where, at that time, women had started wearing pants relatively often. This shows that life inside and even outside of the world was much more tentative to let women express themselves with the way they dressed. This could partially be due to the way women were seen in the harem--as much more helpless and inferior to men than they were seen in places like America. These gender roles likely had a monumental impact on the restrictions of dress in that area at the time.
Where do the characters find sources of inspiration in their lives?
ReplyDeleteThe women in Fatima’s world find inspiration and hope in large part through the stories and characters that Chama and Aunt Habiba’s plays portray. One of these characters, Asmahan, is an actress and singer who dreams of “independence, individual happiness and a sensuous, self-indulgent life” (pg. 106), which for the most part she finds. She is outspoken and stands up for what she believes in and for what she wants, and in this way provides inspiration for the Mernissi women. The Egyptian and Lebanese feminists also appear in Chama’s plays, especially her three favorites: Aisha Taymour, who lived a boring life dreaming and writing of freedom while being locked up in a harem; Zaynab Fawwaz, who wrote press releases advocating freedom but also was never allowed to leave her harem; and Sha’raoui, an aristocratic Egyptian beauty who fought for freedom and women’s rights and tossed away her veil, even managing to do so from outside the harem. Scheherazade and the princesses that she tells tales of in A Thousand and One Nights are also some of the most popular and inspirational characters in Chama’s plays. Princess Budur, for example, is a strong and daring woman, one of Scheherazade’s characters. She impersonates her husband when he mysteriously disappears one morning, in order to avoid being abused by the other men in the camp. Surprisingly, the princess’s ruse succeeds; so well, in fact, that a king takes her for a man and presents his daughter for her to marry. Princess Budur agrees, and ends up forming an alliance with the king’s daughter, showing the bravery of both women, and the power of “women’s solidarity” as well.
Besides the examples of Chama’s plays and Aunt Habiba’s stories, the women in Dreams of Trespass also find inspiration elsewhere in their lives. Defying the men, tradition, and rules in many small ways, for example, seems to give them hope. The women sneak forbidden American cigarettes, chewing gum, and clothes into the harem; dance and sing along to Radio Cairo when the men are out; sneak across rooftops to the street outside; beg to go to the movies; and weave the patterns that they wish to on their looms, disregarding the tradition and the restrictions that may prevent them from doing so. Fatima, in particular, is also inspired by the words and the experiences of the women in the harem around her, like Mina’s story of being lowered down a dark well and not crying out or becoming afraid; Aunt Habiba’s advice on listening and observing and learning how to be a skilled conversationalist; and her mother’s dreams that she, Fatima, will grow to be an independent, intelligent, and free woman who lives an adventurous life outside the harem.
How are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
ReplyDeleteIn general, the women in Fatima’s world are affected by changes in society because these changes expose them to ideas and possibilities that they might not have realized otherwise. The feminists beginning to advocate for more freedoms and rights for women, for example, inspire and encourage the women in Fatima’s harem to dream of the same. The presence of the French and Americans in Morocco also show the Mernissi women that females elsewhere in the world are allowed to show their skin and hair in public, and walk about dressed in clothes nearly as exposing as the men’s. This opens to them the realization that women are capable of gaining freedoms and rights elsewhere, and the possibility that they could be capable of doing so in Morocco as well. Forbidden products, too, find their way into the harems, such as American cigarettes and chewing gum and beauty products and new clothes. Ideas, such as new teaching methods and new schools, also infiltrate the Moroccan society. This last has a particularly large effect on Fatima’s life, as she becomes able to attend schools with long lunch breaks and recesses, doors that can be opened by knocking, and subjects that have been made newly available to girls, such as mathematics, foreign languages, geography, and even gymnastics. Without these changes in their society, the Mernissi women would not have become exposed to these new products and ideas and possibilities, that allow them to begin to question their society and wonder why theirs is so different and apparently so much more restrictive than those of the French and Americans.
Free-response option: Address another issue/episode/or passage in the book that you find significant.
ReplyDelete“ ‘You know,’ Samir said, ‘I am a man, although it does not show yet, and men and women have to hide their bodies from each other. They need to separate.’ ” ... “ ‘Men don’t need beauty preparations,’ he said. ‘I think that men have a different skin.’ I just stared at him. There was nothing I could say because I realized that for the first time in our children’s games, all that Samir had said was right, and that whatever I said did not matter that much. Suddenly, it all seemed so strange and complicated, and beyond my grasp. I could feel that I was crossing a frontier, stepping over a threshold, but I could not figure out what kind of new space I was stepping into.’ ” (pg. 241)
This passage, which is found on the next-to-last page of the book, is significant in that it addresses all the major parts of the book: Fatima’s concern with the frontiers in her life, and the differences between men and women. Fatima, before this passage, never seems to have really come to terms with the fact that the differences between men and women in her society apply to her. Perhaps this is because she sees them as a problem of her mother’s generation, and because the women in her harem have spent so much time assuring her that life will be different for her. Or perhaps it is simply because she has never been forced to face the frontier between men and women so blatantly and in such relation to her own life before this point in the book. She saw her mother and aunts struggling for their various freedoms, but never in her own life had the differences between men and women applied to her so personally.
Fatima is confused and rather sad when Samir says this to her, and when she goes to Mina for comfort, Mina tells her that, “ ‘Childhood is when the difference does not matter. From now on, you won’t be able to escape it. You’ll be ruled by the difference. The world is going to turn ruthless.’ ” Fatima responds with a plea for Mina to explain why. “ ‘Why can’t we escape the rule of the difference? Why can’t men and women keep on playing together even when they are older? Why the separation?’ ” Here, Fatima is reaching a realization of the hard truths of her society, that before then she hadn’t entirely considered or accepted. This represents an especially significant moment in both the book’s plot and Fatima’s life, as it both addresses the main points of the book as well as represents a sort of coming-of-age moment for Fatima.
How are the characters affected by events/changes in society?
ReplyDeleteThe characters of this novel are largely affected by the westernization that the French in Morocco. After the French arrive, the women of the harem notice girls on their way to school wearing light headscarves and coats that are normally for men, allowing them to be free to take long strides and use their arms. After the girls start wearing these clothing items, women on the streets start wearing them as well, which eventually leads to Fatima's mother wearing them.Westernization also caused women like Fatima's mother to request being able to walk around on the streets without a headscarf at all. Westernization led to the practice of smoking cigarettes and chewing gum as well, and the desire to go see movies with the male members of the harem.
How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
ReplyDeleteThey assert themselves with what Aunt Habiba calls talents. As she says, everyone must develop a talent to give back what was given to them in the form of others sharing their talent. Fatima's mothers' individuality is expressed in her attitude and rebelliousness. Like how she dressed Fatima in white French dresses and herself wears see-through veils. Chama has her acting. Yasmina has her humor and quirkiness, Aunt Habiba and Yaya have their storytelling. Mabrouka's swimming. And, let us not forget Lala Thor's beauty, wealth, and prissiness.
How does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteOur personal background (by that I mean Americans in general) tells us that veils are prisons, that they oppress women and that the men force them to wear them because they are better than women are. We also see them as a danger sign. 9/11 caused Americans to panic and spread vicious stereotypes about anyone of the muslim religion, or who looks like they belong to it.
My personal background has taught me otherwise. This book, the play, last years world religions class, and my mother's accepting ideas of people have long taught me that someone wearing a veil is not someone to be feared. America's fear is so extremely out of proportion, it is mind-boggling.
Sula, I totally agree with you that many Americans have a stereotype against muslims. We definitely don't need to be fearful of them.
ReplyDeleteHow does our cultural background shape our perception of women and the practice of veiling (or wearing a head scarf) in other countries?
ReplyDeleteLike Sula said, many Americans believe that muslims are associated with terrorism and think back to 9/11. Before then, we had no qualms about the religion or its followers. Because of our cultural background, Americans think that veiling is not needed. Some Americans also think that it doesn't look right, and definitely would be perceived to be out of place if a muslim wore it in America because we aren't used to women covering their heads for instance, in the summer. Hopefully, as time moves on from 9/11, more and more people will look beyond the vail and not be so judgmental whenever they see or hear of it.
How do the characters assert their individuality within a repressive society?
ReplyDeleteFatima definitely has some individuality. She grew up always dreaming of freedom and what the world looked like beyond the harem. She would rebel by trying to climb over into another courtyard to sneak out. In the society she lived in, that definitely wouldn't have been acceptable. The men would have punished her somehow- but her individuality allowed her to be brave. Her mother shows it, too. She doesn't let the society stop her. An example of this is when she ate snacks when she wasn't supposed to. In a harem, everyone is required to eat together. Even when nobody was looking, she still took that risk. These two examples show that the women and girls living in the harem were very assertive in showing their individuality- even though they new the possible costs. They were trying to say something inadvertently to the men- something that said "Look. We really don't like being treated-cooped up this way, so please reconsider letting us walk about freely whenever we please."
How is the practice of veiling (or restrictions on dress in general) reflective of cultural attitudes toward gender roles? How do these attitudes affect characters’ lives?
ReplyDeleteIn Dreams of Trespass, Fatima's religion requires women to cover their bodies. This is done because they believe that by covering their bodies, men won't be likely to stare at them. It shows the large gap of inequality to women were facing. Whenever they asked to wear something lighter than the burka or other heavy headscarves, the men wouldn't let them. For instance, Fatima's mother asked her husband to wear something lighter and more see-through, but he didn't allow that. This attitude caused some of the women to rebel, for instance, out on the streets, they had started wearing the lighter headscarves despite the religion's preference. When the women go to the mosque, they have to sit in the way back so they aren't a distraction to the men. Wearing a headscarf is also perceived to serve as a distraction to men, but many of the women have no problem wearing them. But for those who want to make adjustments, they are rejected. And eventually, for some, causing a rebellion.